Welcome back everyone to another deep dive today. Um, well, we're tackling something a topic that I find kind of intriguing and honestly a bit unsettling You know tall poppy syndrome It's uh, you've probably heard of it right that tendency to like criticize or even sabotage successful people We usually associate it with Australia But today we're diving into whether this you know this whole Paul poppy thing exists right here in America and What I think is so fascinating about this deep dive is that we're using this well a pretty unique lens I think the source material for all this is actually a book written by an American an orthopedic surgeon who well He experienced a sudden career setback a big one. Yeah, yeah And his story is really like a powerful entry point into this whole discussion Don't you think I mean he was like at the top of his game You know director of a huge rehab facility published researcher the whole nine yards and then bam out of the blue he gets demoted practically exiled like to a tiny office and That experience really made him question a lot was he like a victim of American tall poppy syndrome Or was it something else, you know something unique to American culture? Yeah, that's the core question We're gonna try and tackle today and I think well, it's important to note right from the start this book It argues that classic Australian tall poppy syndrome, you know the kind driven purely by envy It might not be as prevalent here in the US. Okay, so is there an American version of this this whole phenomenon That's what the author sets out to like prove I guess he calls it a modified American tall poppy syndrome the You know the cutting down it isn't just about envy, but it's well It's tied to this idea of deserving this it's a kind of a twist on the classic definition. Would you say? Deserving this that's interesting makes me wonder like how is that even determined? You know Deserving this American culture. I mean, what are the criteria? That's a great question And well the book it really dives into the research of this guy Norman Feather He was a social psychologist and he found that people are just more likely To well to criticize successful people if they believe you know if they believe those people didn't really earn their success You know what I mean, so it's like it's not just about Bringing someone down because they're successful, but it's more like there's this judgment about how they got there Right almost like a like a cultural litmus test for fairness Exactly and the book also brings in this other thing Jonathan hates moral foundations theory It points out that liberals they well they tend to be more sensitive to you know like disparities and wealth and power and They're often the ones well exhibiting those those tall poppy tendencies at least according to the book Liberals prioritize fairness and harm avoidance and all that so when someone achieves success And it seems like they didn't really like play by the rules that triggers a sense of injustice The book uses Martha Stewart as an example right she achieved incredible success, but she well She also arguably contributed to her own downfall right totally So this idea of the American cutter it goes beyond just individual behavior, right? The book also argues that the American government itself It can be like a perpetrator of tall poppy syndrome. That's it. Well, it's an interesting idea Isn't it we don't usually think about the government in this you know in this context at least not in the same way as the Australian model Yeah, so it's not just about envy or resentment then sometimes it's about power dynamics maybe Silencing descent maintaining control or I don't know something like that and this whole idea of the government being a you know a cutter It really makes you think about the tension between individual success and government power in America, you know Yeah, that tension is always there. It makes me think about the American dream, right? You know this idea of self-reliance and meritocracy if the government itself can act as a cutter Does that like complicate that whole narrative? Absolutely and the book goes on to explore You know how that whole ideal of the American dream has evolved over time Especially when you think about like changing demographics and economic shifts and all that so it's not static them this whole idea of the American dream It's well, it's been shaped and reshaped by the forces of history and culture, right exactly and Moving on a bit the book also explores all these well this whole range of emotions involved in all of this It's not just envy, but well, it's a whole spectrum of feelings resentment anger Even vengeance and I remember like the book uses some pretty compelling examples to illustrate that point, right? Oh, yeah there's the story of Philip Henry Goss and Edward drinker cope. They were these two paleontologists and They had this bitter rivalry fueled by all this professional jealousy And it basically well it led to the downfall of both of them They pretty much destroyed each other. Wow a classic example of cutting each other down out of spite Talk about holding a grudge and then there's the well the more disturbing example of Osama bin Laden The book uses that one to illustrate how you know how resentment and this desire for vengeance can like drive people to extreme actions Right and it's a well It's a sobering reminder that these emotions these feelings they might seem personal But they can have like these far-reaching consequences for everyone for sure and these these intense emotions that you know That seem to go along with TPS that they can manifest in different ways sometimes It's you know, it's about cutting down achievement, but it can also turn into something Something a lot more insidious right like bullying the book is careful to you know to differentiate between the two Oh, yeah, for sure. While tall poppies. I mean they can definitely be bullied but bullying Well, it isn't limited to you know to high achievers that can target anyone regardless of what they've achieved It's more about I think it's more about picking on someone who's you know, who's perceived as different or vulnerable But TPS on the other hand that's specifically aimed at you know at those who are successful or stand out from the crowd So tall poppies might experience bullying because they you know, they stand out but bullying well, it's not just limited to high achievers, right? It's more about these These power dynamics and targeting perceived weakness exactly and both bullying and TPS can I mean they can have like Devastating consequences and speaking of devastating consequences. This is where it gets I think well really fascinating the book shares these like captivating stories of these prominent Americans who well who might be considered victims of American tall poppy syndrome and They're carefully chosen I think to highlight all the you know the complexities and nuances of each situation The stories yeah, they illustrate different aspects of this whole thing, right? Oh like take Frank's brew He was well. He was a brilliant inventor and he basically I mean he gave us the electric streetcar You know the trolley and yet despite all that you know all those significant contributions. He was Pretty much forgotten even overshadowed I'd say yeah and spring story It really illustrates a common pattern in American TPS. We celebrate you know innovation and all that yeah But we quickly forget the people who well the ones who paved the way We're always looking for that next big thing. Aren't we always striving for well something bigger? And better and then you have you have this other fascinating story Mary whether Lewis you know the leader of the Lewis and Clark expedition he achieved remarkable success You know but later on he faced all these well Personal and professional struggles His story kind of raises questions about the long-term toll of all that achievement and the difficulties of you know like Reintegrating back into society after these well these extraordinary experiences It's like climbing to the top of a mountain and then you know struggling to find your footing back in the valley exactly and then the book explores Well the downfalls of you know these really well-known people like Lance Armstrong and Tiger Woods Their personal failings they led to like public shaming and they lost that you know that iconic status It's almost like we hold these these tall poppies to a higher standard You know we expect perfection from them and then when they stumble where well We're so quick to judge them to condemn them and sometimes it's not even about you know these personal failings The book also looks at at Rachel Carson the author of Silent Spring. She faced harsh criticism I mean even personal attacks yeah for exposing you know the dangers of DDT her story really shows the well the risks of Challenging those you know those powerful interests. She was a tall poppy who like dared to speak truth to power and Well, she definitely paid the price the book it goes on to list all these you know all these tall poppies and cutters throughout American history It's well quite a catalog. Yeah, and the list is well. It's pretty diverse I mean we've got like Harriet Tubman Frederick Douglass Jane Adams Margaret Sanger Helen Teller Caesar Chavez Frank Capra John Muir Bill Gates even Steve Jobs all considered tall poppies And then on the the cutter side you see names like well John D Rockefeller JP Morgan Andrew Carnegie Henry Ford It really shows that this whole thing this phenomenon it well cuts across every aspect of American society politics business entertainment Academia you name it it's starting to feel like nowhere is safe from this American cutter Well, it It might seem that way but before we you know before we get too pessimistic about all this the book does talk about the positive side Of you know of being a tall poppy. Oh, yeah, that's right There's that whole section on like how to become a tall poppy in a positive way, right? It's not about like achieving fame or fortune. It's about well It's about striving for excellence and making a you know a positive impact But we'll say that discussion for you know for later in our deep dive for now Let's keep keep exploring these these examples of American tall poppy syndrome and see what you know what other insights we can find Yeah, it's a fascinating look at well at how Americans view success and failure You know it makes you wonder, you know, if American culture if it actually like Encourages this whole cut-down mentality. You know what I mean? Well the book, you know, it argues that American TPS It's what's more nuanced than the classic, you know, Australian model and a lot of it seems to come back to that well that concept of Deserving this we were talking about earlier, right exactly the author he suggests that Americans are well They're less likely to cut down, you know people who like earned their success Yeah through hard work Alan and well importantly, you know ethical behavior Yeah, it all ties back to that, you know that American dream ideal the idea that well that success is attainable You know for anyone who plays by the rules and puts in the effort So it's less about like tearing down those high achievers and more about I don't know Maintaining this sense of balance and fairness if someone has seen as you know like gaming the system or taking shortcuts Well, that's when they I guess they become a target, right and the book it It argues that this sense of fairness is well, it's particularly strong among, you know among liberals They tend to I guess be more sensitive to To those disparities in wealth and power and they're more likely to like view success with suspicion Especially if it seems like, you know, like it came at the expense of other people Yeah, I can see that it aligns with their you know their emphasis on things like social justice and equality and all that But I mean does that mean like that American TKS is you know a uniquely liberal phenomenon then well not necessarily the book that you know It acknowledges that that conservatives. I mean they can also have you know these TPS tendencies But often for well for different reasons conservatives I mean they tend to be more I guess more hierarchical in their thinking so they might be more likely to you know cut down Those who like challenge authority or you know disrupt the established order so it's less about like Fairness to them and more about maintaining, you know those those traditional Hierarchies and they might also be I guess more likely to target Individuals who you know who they think are violating those Those moral or religious values, right exactly so, you know while both liberals and conservatives I mean they might engage in you know and it's cutting down But their motivations well they often stem from like these totally different values and worldviews that is interesting how You know this one phenomenon can be driven by such well such different, you know underlying beliefs That's what makes it so well so complex. I mean it's not like a black and white issue. It's this well, it's this whole tangled web of you know cultural values and individual psychology and political ideology Okay, so let's let's dive into some of those, you know those specific examples the book uses to like to illustrate these different I don't know facets of American TPS It's one thing to you know to talk about this stuff in the abstract But those like those real life stories they really bring it to life one example that well that's really struck me was well The story of Franklin B. Gowan. He was this real-world president back in the you know the late 19th century And he was well, I guess you could say he was the epitome of you know a robber baron Yeah, like a master fortune through well through ruthless business practices, you know crushing unions forming cartels all sorts of well shady dealings a classic Classic tall poppy. I guess at least in terms of you know success and power But then like so many others he while he faced a series of setbacks his company it went bankrupt He was you know forced out and ultimately well, he committed suicide. Yeah, it's almost like a Shakespearean tragedy You know the rise and fall of this this powerful figure and his story it really like it highlights those themes of deservingness and You know fairness that we've been you know talking about Gowan He was I guess he was seen as someone who achieved success through into these really ruthless tactics and at the expense of well of others So when his downfall came, I mean there was this sense of you know like karmic justice among well among the people he had wronged It's like like the collective American psyche has this like this built-in mechanism for I don't know for balancing the scales Right and then the book jumps forward in time, you know to the dot-com bubble of the what the late 1990s and early 2000s that whole period it saw the you know the meteoric rise and fall of well of Townless tech company that was I mean that was a wild time so much like innovation and potential but also well a lot of you know rampant speculation and In some cases, you know outright deception. Yeah, and the book uses Enron as a well as a prime example They're like initially hailed as you know as this revolutionary company But then well it all came crashing down when you know when their fraudulent financial practices were well They were exposed. Yeah a classic case of you know of a tall poppy getting cut down when they're You know when their unethical behavior was revealed and there you know their downfall really highlighted the the dangers of I don't know unchecked greed and ambition especially in a system that can be you know that can be so easily manipulated Exactly, and then there's there's a story of Bernie Madoff. Yeah, you know the guy who oh he Orchestrated one of the largest Ponzi schemes in well in history. Yeah, he defrauded investors of I mean of billions of dollars His story I think it's particularly well It's particularly intriguing because you know he was able to keep up his charade for I mean for so long He cultivated this like this aura of respectability and I allowed him to you know to gain the trust of well Even those really sophisticated investors He was like the ultimate wolf and sheep's clothing And his you know his downfall well It was a stark reminder that even those people who who seem I don't know successful and trustworthy They can be capable of well of incredible deception. It's a well. It's a cautionary tale You know about the importance of like due diligence, especially when it comes to well to financial matters for sure And then the book it goes on to discuss Elizabeth Holmes, you know the founder of Theranos the company that well that promised to like Revolutionized blood testing another example of someone who you know who seemed to have it all but whose claims well They were ultimately exposed as you know as fraudulent her story. I think it really highlights the you know the perils of that whole Fake it till you make its culture in Silicon Valley where ambition can sometimes You know it can cross the line into deception It's a reminder that well that we shouldn't you know blindly accept the claims of of those who you know those who promise these like Revolutionary breakthroughs we need to be well we need to be critical thinkers right and demand you know demand evidence speaking of you know demanding evidence and holding those in power accountable the book then shifts its focus to well to the world of politics and Well as you might imagine TPS is I mean it's rampant there. Yeah politics. I mean it's inherently a well a competitive field So it makes sense that there would be you know There would be a lot of cutting down going on for sure the book talks about Bill Clinton's travel office scandal Which well it was you know relatively minor in the in the grand scheme of things But it really highlighted I think the Clinton's willingness to to use their power to like to reward allies and you know and Punish those they perceived as like as threats. It's a good reminder that even in a democracy power can be well It can be pretty easily abused and then there's the The case of Webster Hubble he was a you know a close friend and associate of a Bill Clinton And he was convicted of well of fraud and tax evasion Hmm and his downfall was well He was seen by some as like as evidence of you know of the Clinton's ruthlessness You know and their tendency to like to distance themselves from anyone who you know who might? Might tarnish their image it speaks to the you know that that cutthroat nature of politics where? Loyalty is well it's often conditional and self-preservation I mean it rains supreme right and the book also discusses the the IRS Targeting of you know tea party groups during well during the old bomb administration Which well raise some some pretty serious concerns about you know about the government using its power to like to stifle descent and target specific You know political ideologies It was a I mean it was a highly controversial case a lot of conservatives believe you know They believe that the IRS was like being weaponized against them. Yeah, it really highlighted the importance of you know of government transparency and accountability and The need to you know to protect freedom of speech regardless of well regardless of anyone's political beliefs It's a big one and it's not just you know, it's not just politicians who get cut down The book also talks about cases where you know we're individuals who who might be considered you know like heroes or trailblazers Well, they became targets. Yeah, like Take Billy Mitchell for example He was a you know a pioneering aviator who you know who really advocated for the development of you know airpower But he was eventually well He was court-martialed for for publicly criticizing you know his superiors who well who just clung to These these outdated military doctrine use of it Well, he was a visionary and he was you know He was punished for for daring to like to challenge the status quo his story really I think it exemplifies that whole tension between you know between innovation and tradition especially within like you know Within powerful institutions like like the military. Yeah, it's a classic tale And then there's the the heartbreaking story of Eddie Slovic He was the well He was the only American soldier to be you know to be executed for desertion during World War two and he was I mean He was clearly unfit for you know for combat, but he was nonetheless, you know made an example of his story raises some well Some serious questions about you know about military justice and the treatment of you know of soldiers who are who are struggling with With mental health issues for sure It's a reminder that even in times of you know in times of war we need to you know We need to prioritize compassion and understanding. Yeah, absolutely and the book it also explores the case of Captain Charles McVeigh the third he was the you know He commanded the USS Indianapolis during World War two the Indianapolis was sunk and McVeigh He was later while he was court-martialed a lot of people believe he was you know He was made a scapegoat for the Navy's own failures. Yeah, his his conviction was eventually, you know it overturn But the whole ordeal it really like highlighted the the complexities of you know of leadership and the well the often Unfair burdens placed on those you know on those who command it's it well It's a reminder that even those who you know who serve their country with with honor and courage I mean they can still be victims of injustice So we've you know, we've seen these examples of American TPS and business and technology finance even in cases involving you know American heroes It really drives home the point that This phenomenon it well it really permeates every aspect of American society and it does seem like this you know this whole cut-down mentality is it's like deeply ingrained in our culture. Yeah, but you know before we before we spiral into despair The book does offer some you know some guidance on how to I don't know how to navigate this whole this complex landscape And even you know even how to become a tall poppy In well in positive sense now that's well that's something I'm really interested in exploring Let's let's shift gears a bit and and delve into That aspect of you know the book in the next part of our well our deep dive So we've we spent a good chunk of time. I think unpacking that Well the darker side of American tall poppy syndrome, but the book well It doesn't just you know, it doesn't leave us hanging there in the darkness It uh, it actually has a whole section on well on the idea of becoming a tall poppy You know, but in a positive sense and honestly after all that talk of you know of cutting down and everything This section it feels like I know like a breath of fresh air. It really is and uh It's important to I think you know to emphasize that well that the book's vision of a you know a positive tall poppy It's not about like achieving this crazy level of fame or fortune or anything like that It's more about well, it's more about striving for I guess for excellence in whatever you do about making a you know A meaningful contribution. It's about like finding, you know, your passion and then just going for it, right? But with integrity and well a genuine desire to to actually make a difference, right? Exactly the book it uh, it even profiles several, you know, several individuals who could be considered like I don't know every day Tall poppies. Yeah You know people who are like making a positive impact and you know in their communities in their fields Yeah, even if they're not you know household names. Yeah, when you think about it like that it Well, it makes the whole I don't know the concept of of a tall poppy. It makes it so much more I guess are so much more attainable But it's not just like about these CEOs and celebrities and all that it's about you know It's about everyday people who are well who are committed to to making a positive impact Absolutely, and the book highlights, you know, it highlights the story of uh, Fred Smith, you know the uh, the founder of FedEx as a well as an example He had this I mean this radical idea Yeah to create like an overnight delivery service. Yeah, and everyone I mean everyone told him it wouldn't work But he was well he was determined and he ended up, you know building one of the most successful companies in well in the world And his story, I mean it's a great example of what the book calls, you know, like principal centered leadership Yeah, smith. I mean he was driven by this like the set of of core values. Yeah, you know integrity hard work Well a commitment to you know to customer service and those values They were like woven into the well, I guess the fabric of of his company. It's a well It's a powerful reminder that success, you know success. It's built on like a foundation of of ethical behavior Well, it's not only more it's I guess more sustainable, but it's also well. It's more fulfilling in the long run So it's not just about, you know individual drive and and determination and all that it's also about well It's about the principles that you know that guide your actions and uh, and the way you you know the way you treat other people Yeah, exactly and uh, the book also It stresses the importance of you know of building I guess building strong relationships that argues that well that tall poppies Even you know, even the positive ones. They're rarely like lone wolves They you know, they surround themselves with with talented people supportive individuals who can well who can help them reach their You know, their full potential It's about like fostering this this culture of collaboration, right where everyone well where everyone feels valued and uh and empowered to to contribute their best Exactly and the book it encourages You know it encourages readers to be I guess to be proactive. Yeah, you know in in shaping their own destinies It's not about like waiting for opportunities to you know to just fall into your lap. It's about well. It's about setting clear goals Yeah developing, you know a plan and then taking you know taking action taking ownership right of your success rather than just You know relying on those external factors, right and uh, and finally the book it leaves us with this what this really I think thought provoking question. What do you you know? What do you want your legacy to be what kind of impact, you know, what kind of impact you want to have on the world? That's a well, that's a powerful question, isn't it? It shifts the focus from you know from just Achieving success for the sake of success to you thinking about well about the broader impact of you know of your actions And it's a question that Well, but we can all you know, we can all ask ourselves Regardless of you know of our chosen field Yeah, or you know our level of achievement because I mean because ultimately, you know true success It's not just about like reaching the top. It's about the you know, it's about the journey the values you you know You embody along the way and the well the positive impact you you leave behind So while our you know while this deep dive has explored the well I guess the darker side of success and the ways in which American culture You know it can sometimes I guess undermine those those who stand out It also I think it also offers a message of well of hope An empowerment it reminds us that we well that we each have the potential to to become you know those tall poppies But in a positive way to you know to make a meaningful contribution And to well to leave the world, you know a better place than than we found it and as you go about your day You know just keep those questions in mind. Are you like are you celebrating success? Or are you you know, are you tearing it down? Are you you know, are you building others up? Or are you cutting them down the the choice? Well, the choice is always yours words to live by And that's well, that's our deep dive into you know into tall poppy syndrome in america a huge thanks to our expert for well for guiding us through this this complex and honestly often uh Often unsettling topic. It's been a pleasure and to you know to you dear listener Just well just keep striving for excellence keep making a you know a positive impact and never never be afraid to stand.